Federal Government Fund For Developing Propulsion Technologies In Passenger Vehicles Ep 256

Swell AI Transcript: Federal Government Fund for Propulsion Technologies in Passenger Vechicles.mp3

00:00 announcer So, if you want to talk about cars, Ferrari, GTO, Bentley, CRX, and even down here, great granddad Spearless, welcome to No Driving Gloves, the Car Talk Authority, where experienced

00:27 John knowledge and controversy share the same seat. Enjoy the ride. Now your hosts, John and Derek. Hey, it's No Driving Gloves, everybody. We're back again, just returned from our summer hiatus. We kind of warned you last year that we were going to take some of these hiatuses. Sorry, we didn't announce we were taking about five weeks off or so. I'm sorry, we're going to work a little bit better on that, try to have some more shows in advance so that you don't even notice when we do go on hiatus. But I got Derek sitting across the mic from me. Derek, did you enjoy your little time off or was it just all work, work, work, work? I got a trip to North Carolina in for about a week,

01:17 Derek which was interesting to say the least. How about you? Oh, geez, well, number one, it's great to be back, back at the mic, back, well, I'd say looking at John's face, but, hey, you know, we have our camera on, but we don't video anymore. So, John, the problem is, as I get older, I remember less and less of what I do in the short term. I don't remember. It's basically been work, work, work. Even the travel that I've done has primarily been work-related. I've been traveling to Indian apolis a little bit for a conference put on by the National Endowment for the Humanities I've been talking at. Yeah, it just, it just goes by and I don't know, I'm sure I had fun in there somewhere. I'm sure you did. Well, you were playing with French cars just the other day, if I remember from a Facebook post. That is true. That is one good thing about the field that we both work in, in this classic car, antique car world, and sometimes our jobs afford us the opportunity to have a little fun with oddball cars. Well, I guess, especially my job. So, yeah, every once in a while we'll do fun days at the Lane Motor Museum. And just the other day I was running, driving around in a Moshe Velo car from 1931 and a 1978 Seab Flipper. I'm not going to go into that, because I know everybody knows what a Flipper is. Oh, yeah. I mean, I remember their ads had a dolphin in it or something. Yeah, I think that was the right one. Yeah. Yeah, no, we do get to have fun and drive some very oddball stuff. And the cool thing is I get to make visitors to the museum laugh as I try to climb into some of these micro cars to be able to demonstrate them. It is,

03:11 John it is fun. It sounds a little bit more exciting than mine. Just drive around, drive around, drive around. We did add a, what is it called? Instagram threads. I think that's going to probably be the new Twitter. I just have a feeling on that one. And I just never- Ooh, we got a threads. I didn't know that. I never got onto Twitter, never understood it, really tried to get onto it the last couple of months and understand it. But everybody that I'm subscribed to or I follow, I never hear anything from. And all I ever get are political tweets. And this group's doing this and this did this and the Supreme Court did that. And it's right and left. It doesn't even go with my bias. And I'm just totally lost on the whole deal. And how about you just show me what the people I'm following never got car news and 90% of the people, businesses I follow are car related. So I'm hoping even though the threads algorithms, supposedly a little screwed up, let's give Mark a chance. And maybe I'll actually occasionally get a car post between all the ads that Facebook slips in. Excuse me, Meta slips in there. You can follow us on Instagram threads or threads or whatever, no driving gloves. So we're on Instagram threads, Instagram, Facebook will be our primary social media sites. I've been throwing out as I travel, I'm finding it amazing that I go to a lot of different retailers and a lot of different rural towns. The number of Mali's cars that are actually being used and some in really good shape. I decided I'm going to start throwing up some photos. A couple of months ago, I found absolutely gorgeous powder blue, roughly 1990 Chrysler LeBaron. Oh, nice. That absolutely squared off body shape. Kind of by 90 Chrysler and went back to the early 80s, K car design where it was vertical grill, vertical rear window, vertical tail light panel. And I had an 88 LeBaron, surprise, a four door and we had an 87 LeBaron convertible. And those were not square vehicles, but by 90, they went back to that.

05:38 Derek You know, I was just in somewhere the other day and pulled in a parking lot and there was a dark maroon, probably early 90s squared off New Yorker sitting in the parking lot. And it was beautiful, beautiful condition. No, no corrosion. The paint still looked pretty good. Obviously been taken care of probably, you know, little old person's car that was in the garage all its life. And I actually stopped and I had to look at it for a little bit. I was just like, man, that is a timeless design right there. I mean, it is just good looking, fairly well built. I mean,

06:18 John Chrysler had their issues, but I was just happy to see it. I was very happy to see it. I'm going to say it's always nice to see them in nice condition and perfect condition. And this LeBaron was much the same way. I mean, looked in at the interior was clean and you think that, oh boy, you know, this is probably the original owners and we're only 35 years on or so. So it could have been somebody who bought it in their sixties and you know, now they're pushing their nineties, late nineties or mid nineties and still driving it. But it's just absolutely perfect. So it could still be a one owner car or was that car that was bought in 90 by somebody in their sixties and they just recently passed away. And maybe somebody was driving it for fun, but that, you know, that was an unusual one. I saw, I saw, I've seen an Aurora recently pickup trucks like crazy mid nineties, Dodge Rams, you know, like your favorite guy, Walker, Texas Rangers truck, even getting into the previous generation Ram and Fords. And those are always there. S tens early, early Rangers. It's kind of fun that way, but the one that, when you get away from the trucks and you still stay kind of with the cars, the one I see the most are Gio and Chevrolet trackers. You know, I just don't picture those. I know Samurai still exists because they're a neat cheap four by four for off-roading and having fun with, but

07:52 Derek I see trackers in all kinds of shape. You know what surprised me lately? I do a lot of marketplace looking and Craigslist and you're seeing what's out there. You know, what market is doing on some of the cars and there have been so many really nice, I'm not talking rusted out, junked out, but really, really well cared for nice chevettes coming out of the woodwork. And man, there's been a few that have been a great price. I mean, very tempting price, solid cars, you know, very, very little corrosion issues. And I mean, they're just great little fuel efficient cars and they're just coming out of the word woodwork right now. Along with the, you know, you talk about the K cars, I've seen more Maserati TC's for sale over the last probably six months. So basically, you know, the beginning half of this year that I think I've ever seen in my life, like literally, like the TC such an obscure kind of

09:06 John moment in Chrysler Maserati time, but I can't even tell you how many I've seen for sale. It's insane and they're all in really nice condition. I've followed the TC since day one, since probably 86. My father had a TC ordered for the longest, longest time. Were they ever going to produce it? Were they ever going to produce it? And by the time they started producing it, he had given up on it and ordered his Viper. They came out in 89, the Viper had debuted in 89. He literally put money down on the Viper two or three days after the Chicago Auto Show when it was announced and said, forget my TC, I want this. And of course the TC, although we already had an 87 LeBaron Turbo and all the TC was, was the exact same car without the back seat, you know, take out like six inches of wheelbase and get rid of the back seat. And it was virtually the same car, but but I've paid attention to them. I've always liked the TC. They've started to creep up in price a little bit. I mean, for the longest time they were five, $6,000 cars. If you were lucky, actual sale prices, the asking prices have always been more, but now they seem to be

10:24 Derek good condition, low mileage, low teens. Wow. Really? All the ones I see in that condition, they're still like, there's been a few on marketplace that are like six, 7,000 bucks.

10:35 John Oh, and I've seen, I've seen the asking prices be a lot higher and some of the selling prices, selling prices be a lot higher. I don't know. Is bring a trailer, run a Maserati TC?

10:44 Derek You know, that's a good question. While you're looking, there's one other car I got to talk about because it's here in, in town where I live in Kentucky. And it just, it's just sitting next to the pawn shop. So I'm not sure if it's the owner of the pawn shop that has it, or if it's something that got pawned and it's, you know, nobody ever came back for it, whatever. But it's a early 1980s Cadillac Brits, the, the two door with the, you know, the Brits, of course, stainless steel top. And this thing is just beautiful. I am so tempted to stop and look at it, but I, I just, just drive by. I gotta be good. I gotta behave myself. I just drive by, but I look at it every

11:31 John time I go by. Oh, this is a mistake. I should, the problem with bring a trailer to me now was there's too many damn cars. Yes, they've run some TCs. And I guess we should stay on that before I digress into the other stuff that I'm seeing right here. September of last year, $9,200 for a TC with a five speed. So I believe that makes it, I can't remember the Maserati, Maserati motors came with a manual transmission and the Chrysler motors came with the automatic. I think that's right. Cause all, at least all the automatics I see are Chrysler engine. Well, the Mitsubishi, yeah. December 20th, they sold one 31,000 mile in white. That first one was red. This one's in white for 8,900. Well, beginning of June, June 2nd, they sold a looks, maybe it's the Beige-ish 35,000 mile 1990 Chrysler TC five speed with an illuminated Chrysler Maserati promote promotional

12:36 Derek sign for 12,000. But you know, I think, I think too, John, this speaks to the current climate in the automotive market, right? And we've, I think we've talked about it on the show before where prices for new cars are getting out of hand to where a lot of Americans just cannot afford a new automobile. These used cars that are still in good condition, we're starting to see them come out of the woodwork because people are able to buy them at a reasonable price to have a mode of transportation. Maybe it's a good thing. Maybe, maybe these classic cars are going to come out of the woodwork and more people are going to start getting interested in the classic and vintage

13:25 John vehicles again, because it's really all we can afford right now. TCs have all been right around that $10,000 mark for selling prices. Most of them, no reserve. They had a 84 Chrysler executive limousine sell for 5,200 bucks last December. The problem is if you get one though, you can't drive it. You have to hire a driver or else it just looks pointless. Well, they don't know if I drove it or not. What are you going to do? Climb in the back seat then make your way to the front seat? And there's a lot of the, most of them are 86 Dodge 600 convertibles, but partial to, there's a 30,000 mile 86 Dodge 600 ES turbo convertible in silver with gray interior sold for 10,250 is what we'll say. That was back January 1st of this, January 13th of this year. Keith, I think we paid about that price for our 84 Dodge 600 ES turbo convertible back in 86. I don't even know if we paid that much, but you know, just kind of interesting there. He has thrown out the Chrysler, but you do see the TCs for sale, but I rarely, rarely see a TC on the road. I couldn't tell you the last time I saw a TC on the road. That's true. That is true. I've not, I've not seen one on the road in the first half of this year. I'll say that even though I've seen a ton of them up for sale. Yeah. I haven't seen one being driven around. I haven't stumbled upon one in a parking lot somewhere. It's weird. You know, you don't see the 87 or later LeBaron convertibles that often. I see the coupes, but I don't see the convertibles, the TCs, the 84 to mid 90s Chrysler minivans aren't out there, but what you see are the K cars. Like you said, the New Yorkers, the Acclaims, you know, it's weird. There's a few of these that stick around and then other ones, you know, when's the last time you saw a Dodge Shadow? Oh yeah, that's true. Actually on the road. I see them pop up for sale quite often. Are we just valuing them too much? Kind of taken to those, those be good Instagram pictures, the Mali's or even the Radwood cars out

15:47 Derek in the Radwood in the wild. Exactly. That's where I was going. The Radwood in the wild. Yeah. I like it. That could be a whole series. Let's do it. I'll keep my eye out. Actually, I'll take a picture of the Brits next time I go buy it. Well, there's your next special themed exhibition at the Lane, obscure European Radwood. You know, they did a Radwood exhibit like the year before I started at the museum and I'm not sure what was in it altogether. I'd have to go back and pull the file, but I think that's kind of already been done. They didn't call it like obscure, you know, European Radwood. They just call it Radwood, but if I remember right, it was cars you would expect to see. Well, I know the Viper, our Viper was in it. I know that. Yeah, right there. There we go. Radwood, our Autozam AZ1. Yeah. See you, you have Honda City Turbo, the Honda Del Sol, the Viper. Oh gosh, what else is back there? The Alfa Romeo,

16:54 John AZ1. Yeah. See you have regular cars. The Zagato bodied, Saab that must have been on loan. So yeah, there's some, you're kind of well-known Radwood cars. Yeah. You need to do the really obscure stuff. Let's get a Citroen 2C, you know, a 1993 Citroen 2CV or something. You know, the oddball cars that nobody has seen before or potentially nobody would want. So the Un-Radwood exhibit. Yes. Yeah. We could do that. Un-Radwood, non-Radwood, come up with something good. We should probably be careful, I guess, discussing Radwood because it falls under that Hagerty umbrella, which we're probably going to pick on in an episode or two. Oh no. Oh no. This is going to get flagged and Hagerty is going to listen to the whole episode. A listener's a listener. That's true. Yeah. Thanks for listening. They would talk to people about it. They talk bad about our acquisitions. Well, yes, we did, but you listened to us and tell somebody else about us.

17:54 Derek I mean, isn't that the way though to get listeners anymore is just the whole like divisive shock type mentality. Like let's talk bad about people and get them angry and then we'll get more listeners. Well, that's the way. Yeah, that's exactly the way it works. So now we've went down a path that we weren't going to go down. Well, I think we can, you know, we can tie it to the topic because we're talking about things that are old, the Radwood era, malaise era cars, and they're becoming popular again, whether it's because people like them or they're more affordable. So it's the same as the topic we were talking about in pre-show, something that is old being looked at again and played around with. So I think it ties together,

18:48 John John. And I'm going, well, that's not the topic I remember discussing before the show, but that's kind of it in a roundabout way. So we'll just see where it goes. We'll wander down this road for another 15 or 20 minutes. And see, there you go again. You're making a great automotive reference, a roundabout way. As we get onto this subject, I'm going to throw this one out at you because right now the old automotive technology that's being forced down our throats in a very firm and decisive manager manage or firm and decisive way, whatever electric cars, we're all going to have electric cars, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The way it looks is we're kind of stuck with this technology and we've talked hybrids and we've talked whatever. I did use the terms being forced down our throats, being we're going to, there's no other engine technology or power technology for the passenger automobile other than electricity or a internal combustion engine. They told us that. I saw it on Facebook. That's correct. Isn't it, Derek? What? Wait, huh? That there is no other engine technologies available for our passenger cars, other power technology other than electric or internal combustion gasoline engines. Well, yeah. And if you put the two together, you can have a hybrid, but that's it. Okay. Yeah. I forgot that, but we don't want to go hybrid because that makes so much sense. Right. We don't want to have two motors in our car or two different ways of power in our car because gasoline's evil. And we're so dependent on other countries to supply our gasoline, even with United States reserves exceeding most of the world. Okay. I guess that wasn't a 20 minute topic. We established that there is no other way that we could power a vehicle and look for an alternative. Electric said, okay, 2026, we're ready for year 2020, 2035, whatever year it is.

20:56 Derek Well, it keeps moving. Don't forget. Yeah. But what about steam, John, or what about hydrogen fuels? Well, I just saw something here about the Sterling engine and this age old technology could provide quite a boost. Or, you know, what about the idea of taking old engine technology like Sterling or some of the other designs we've had over time and looking into them further and seeing if we can make them more efficient? Why would you do that? They've told us electric's the way to go. I don't know, because I want to actually be able to drive my car efficiently for more than 300 miles before I have to stop and get a full charge. You can buy a Lucid. It'll go 600 miles. Okay, sorry. More than 600 miles. It'll go 600 miles per charge. The car itself might not go 600 miles. It might break before then. But no. And John, I like trucks and I like to pull trailers and haul payloads. And I really want to be able to pull a trailer more than like 100 miles before

22:09 John I need to stop and get a full charge. But don't load the trailer so much. Antique cars tend to weigh a lot, especially big old ones. Hey, McPherson has a team that can take apart or can assemble a Model T in 12 minutes. It's a Model T. It's not a 1923. Old cars are simple to take apart and put back together. It's not a 1923 Peerless Model 66 with a giant cast iron V8 in it. Well, you'll have to make some adaptations and quick connect fittings and you'll put the engine on another trailer. Oh, maybe actually just recast the whole engine out of aluminum and magnesium components and make it look old but be new. I would do it out of carbon fiber. It's a good technology for most things except submarines. And I do disagree. I think carbon fiber is a good technology even for submarines. You just don't make carbon fiber to titanium and

23:12 Derek plexiglass, all three materials that expand and contract at different rates. Well, you got to put engineering development time behind it and really make it work. But the topic we're going down here, if you haven't figured it out, is how can we take older technology and modernize it and possibly make it more fuel efficient. Now, one of the interesting articles that I saw come out recently, I don't know how recently it was, but within the last few weeks or months. And I think they've been around a while looking at this but it continues to develop over time. There are companies out there, specifically one up in the Detroit area, that have been looking at older engine designs. The one that I've been reading about is the opposed piston engine and how we can make it run more efficiently with modern fuels, synthetic fuels, possibly going to hydrogen technology in it, you know, turbo diesel technologies and making older designs that were played around with become more efficient even than the standard reciprocating internal combustion engine we've all come to be used to, let's call it. And also, I mean, I'm extremely interested, I just put together a rotary piston engine exhibit at the Lane Motor Museum. Diving into that, number one, Mazda is now playing around with not using the the rotary engine as the engine for their vehicle, but rather as part of the hybrid system, as only using it as the generator because it can be made to be more efficient when it's simply generating electricity for the hybrid. And it also doesn't wear as much as when it's trying to produce the horsepower and torque to make a vehicle actually, you know, be wheel driven by the rotary engine. These ideas of starting to look back over time and find older technology that with modern fuel systems and more developed engineering principles might become another way to make things more efficient, I think is it's extremely interesting, at least, right? Let's not necessarily just start cramming electric vehicles down everyone's throat and into everyone's driveway and garage, but let's really look and focus on what is the next best thing or what are the options? Okay, some people, maybe, you know, they like the electric car, they don't drive a lot, they don't tow, they just need it to get to their job, get around the city, great, have an electric car, but for those of us that maybe live out in the country, have a little longer drive, we have our trucks and farmers, people that need these vehicles that have high horsepower capabilities that electric motors just don't really have right now, not saying that they're not going to someday, but right now, let's look at all the options and let's start figuring out if there's ways to do this by either modernizing old technologies or coming up with newer versions or new ideas that maybe we can make everyone have what they need.

27:07 John Steve McLaughlin I'm going to dissect a little bit of what you've said there. There's two things I want to comment on. One, you talk about this Mazda thought process of using the gasoline motor as a generator for the electric motor. Didn't we have a little car called the Volt, Volt, V-O-L-T, that did exactly the same thing. The gasoline motor on a Volt was not designed and technically not even connected in a way that made it able to drive the car. The gasoline motor was only there to recharge the electric power plant. Rehashing old technology with new technology, I think Mazda is just looking at the Chevrolet Volt. They're really not even going that far back.

27:50 Derek Jon Moffitt Right. They're using that idea, but they're applying it to the rotary piston engine, which I find fascinating because the rotary piston engine is compact. You can make a very small rotary piston engine that fits into the packaging of the vehicle nicely. If it can be a generator that doesn't have to be big, think of the opportunities there.

28:17 John Jon Moffitt Okay, I'll go with that. Plus, it's interesting. The rotary engine only has what, three or six moving parts? It's very, very few moving parts. It's very similar to an electric

28:30 Derek motor where there's not very many moving parts. It's a simple technology there. Jon Moffitt Yeah, but you talk about that, Jon. Interestingly, don't forget, you say, oh, the Chevy Volt, but go back in history. We have to remember there was a car called the Owen Magnetic back in the teens that had an internal combustion engine with absolutely no mechanical connection to the driveshaft. It was there to charge the batteries for the electric motors. There was a magnetic clutch system in it that actually made the car move, actually supplied the power. It's a very interesting car in the history of automotive technology,

29:25 John but it was that same principle. Jon Moffitt The other thing you said that doesn't make sense. There are people that live in the cities that only commute to work, and a little electric car works for them. I've driven around my city, driven around lots of cities. Do you think, your logic is very sound and you can get away with an electric car because you're only driving 10 miles to work and 10 miles home or three miles to work and three miles home and a grocery store things. But the way America plays out, you still need the biggest, most gargantuan thing on the road to do that with. I guess it's kind of been tried, but cost is preventing it and production is preventing it, but everybody wants to drive a Tahoe so that they can drive three miles to work by themselves. Do you think they really would settle for a Nissan Leaf size vehicle to do that with? Which is exactly what they need. It's exactly what they need now. I think the problem is why we're building a lot of electric cars and while the Tesla Model 3 is the best selling car in California right now, I don't still see Americans converting to smaller, efficient electric vehicles like they need to. I think we're in trouble when everybody is producing a Rivian R1T or a Ford Lightning or a Tesla Cybertruck if it actually gets produced or I can't think of the other company. I think as we get more and more electric pickup trucks out there and electric SUVs, the small, efficient, car-like electric vehicle is

31:19 Derek going to rapidly, rapidly go away. That's a good thought, John. You're right. I think Americans do tend to want the big, bulky vehicle, the Tahos, the F-150s, the Silverados. Now, I won't go there. I don't know the answer to that because you're right. That is America. That is what Americans like. I hear people talk about it all the time and friends that live in the city and various people that I know and chat with. I guess I will go there. That was a joke that I wouldn't go there. One of the reasons that I hear from people that I talk to that live, and these are people that I know in like LA and New York and the big major metropolitan cities, literally has been, well, I got a big SUV because I don't trust other people's driving. I want to be safe and I don't want to be in something small because nobody knows how to drive anymore. Maybe we just need to teach

32:29 John people how to drive. You don't need to teach people how to drive because the cars will drive themselves. Well, that's true. Once we get to pods, we'll be good. Well, we're there now. I was just listening to another podcast where the host borrowed his wife's Model 3, put the destination address in, rested his hand on the steering wheel, and that's all the driver input from his home to the place they were recording. So you don't mean he totally trusts his Tesla self-driving vehicle? Good for him. Good for him. That's all I have to say. May he be with us for a while. I don't think he said he read a book while he was on the way over there. He might have actually been paying attention. It's just, I don't know, I hate the way they, I guess the whole premise behind creating this topic that we're really not discussing. I hate the way that innovation is being legislated out of the automotive world or technically every other technology, but we try to keep it mostly automotive here. And there are so many other viable technologies that could be more easily implemented without having to rely on another infrastructure being built out. Granted, Tesla is installing what's the number? 100 superchargers a day, 400 superchargers a day throughout the country. It's some ungodly number that I can't actually believe is the real number. I think Musk got crazy and probably hit an extra zero. But it doesn't matter if they're installing 10 or if they're installing 1,000. If they're going through and replacing every loves pilot, shell station, gas pump with electric chargers, the electricity's not there to feed them. Yeah, the grid is not there yet. And you know, that's- It would be like having the shell stations, the number of shell stations we do now, back in 1923. Big deal. There's a million shell stations or whatever, 100,000 shell stations throughout the country. But there's only six trucks being able to bring you the gas, and they're bringing it to you in, you know, quart cans, you know? And that's kind of where we're at now is it took until World War II, you know, 20, 30 years to even get gasoline production to where it needs to be. And nobody else was using gasoline. I look around my office here and I've got a refrigerator, a wine cooler, a thermidor, which is basically a refrigerator type thing for a wine bottle, five, six computer monitors on, two speakers. The beep there in the background was my Alexa device that goes by the C word. You know, my mixer, I've got a 3D printer behind me. I have two printers for my computer and then I have a third printer for graphics. And then I have a crick-up machine and then I have a light board for the crick-up machine and I have a second computer for it. And that's in a 300 square foot office for, you know, power. Oh, that doesn't include my five studio lights for video streaming and then the overhead light and the fan and then the air conditioner. There's the electricity I'm using here. And my point is there wasn't that competing for gasoline back in 1935. Hell, there's not that competing for gasoline in 2025. You know, we're legislating ourselves into doom and fortunately we have, like you said, Mazda looking at basically more efficient ways of producing electricity so that they don't have to rely on the grid. You have Toyota that up until the ousting of their last CEO was really looking at hydrogen as a viable powering of a vehicle, which keep in mind all hydrogen's doing is taking hydrogen gas, converting it to a fuel source that then charges batteries. And then the vehicle, the vehicle is still electric. The idea that we need these charging stations, you go and you plug in or you go to your house and you plug in, there needs to be more thought into that. And then of course, Porsche is developing alternative fuels. I believe General Motors is working on an alternative fuel for internal combustion engines. And I think that's all fine and dandy, but if Porsche comes up with a very viable synthetic fuel, how long is that going to take to be able to be produced in the quantities that internal combustion engines require? And that's still relying on a technology that probably is developed as far as it efficiently can at this point. I don't want to say period, because I'm sure in another hundred years, we know we would know how to make gasoline motors run so much better because after a hundred years they run so much better.

37:42 Derek I digress again, I get into my ramps and raves. I like a number of things you said there, John, because number one, legislating ourselves out of innovation, which is scary, right? Because that's what's happened. The industrial revolution, so many of the advancements that have been made throughout the history of mankind has been because people were free to innovate and be creative and look at a problem and find any possible solution to it. And if we establish legislation and laws and policies and things that are going to limit the ability to be creative, then yeah, we're shooting ourselves in the foot. But I also found it interesting, you know, we always talk about the electric grid, infrastructure, all of that. And it just made me think, because I hadn't really thought about it until you just said that, drive around the area you live in. And especially if it's near a metropolitan city, and granted I live 45 minutes outside of Nashville, Tennessee, the amount of gas stations, petroleum stations for internal combustion engines that are being built new right now far exceeds what we are putting in for electric charging stations. I mean, there's probably on my commute to work, three brand new gas stations being built along I-65, just between the Nashville or the Tennessee-Kentucky border and Nashville-Tennessee. Just north of Bowling Green, Kentucky, is the famous Buc-E's. There's a brand new, they just broke ground for a massive Buc-E's truck stop going in, which I need to research and look into it. But as far as I know, there will only, I know there's going to be gasoline pumps and diesel pumps. It would be interesting to see if there's any talk of them putting in an electric charging station. I'm trying to remember, we just built two Buc-E's around here. Yeah, I've seen, I've only been to one Buc-E's ever in my life one time. It was fairly late at night. I was pretty tired, so I wasn't really looking at what all was there. I don't know if they have electric charging stations or not. I think they do, but I'm checking right now. Does Buc-E's have EV charging? Some Buc-E's have EV charging stations. Some, there we go. But I mean, really think about it. We are still building infrastructure for internal combustion engines to this very day. We have not hit that tipping point of building the infrastructure for electric vehicles larger than what we have for internal combustion. And yes, we have more internal combustion cars on the road right now, but if we think, if we even think, that electric vehicles are going to become successful and going to move into the future, when does that tipping point happen to make sure the infrastructure is there? When do we start building gas stations or truck stops, whatever term we want to use for them? The term is probably going to have to change in the future. It will be interesting the day we see, in my opinion, the day we see a gas station go in that is 50% gas pumps, 50% electric charging stations. That to me will show that we're actually starting to change the infrastructure idea of where we're headed.

41:56 John Well, I just did some quick typing and researching on what you asked. The Buc-E's, the one in Leeds, Alabama, which was one of the most recently opened ones, it's been open a little over a year. I don't know about the one in Athens. It has EV charging stations, Tesla only, 250 kilowatt Tesla superchargers only for Tesla EVs or unless you have an adapter. There are 16 plugs for drivers. There are also eight CCSSAE and change mode chargers. Those are 350 kilowatt chargers through Electrify America. There are 24 charging stations at this Buc-E's. There are 120 gas pumps. That's damn near 18%. That's getting close to your 50%. But I also still stand by- Wait, you're saying 18% is getting close to 50? Yes. It's a lot better than what you would think, especially if you look- Well, it's better than zero. Yeah. 18% of the cars on the road aren't electric. So when you look at all the numbers, if you figure 5% of the cars on the road are electric, and they're devoting 18% of their pumps to electric, it's not so bad. Of course, the refueling with electricity takes a little bit longer, however you want to look at it. But I actually find that number surprising that they're approaching that 15-20% ratio. But I still go back to my argument, I'll probably be dead when I'm proven right. Gas stations are obsolete. If we go electric vehicles, gas stations are obsolete. And as soon

43:44 Derek as the petroleum industry figures that out, I think you're going to see lobbying money go elsewhere. That will help developing of other technologies other than electricity. So I just looked it up. According to the International Energy Agency report, 2023 numbers are around 12% electric vehicles on the road in the United States. Okay, so I'm still right. It's close, right? 12%, 18% charging stations. But that's at one bucky's, John. That's at one

44:22 John bucky's in Alabama. Does it equal that all around the United States? I don't understand this, but another bucky's in Tempe, Texas has 10 250 kilowatt Tesla superchargers and then 48 plugs for use. But not all these options. So does it have 48 chargers? Do you see what I'm saying here, John? Which is, yeah, we're looking at one gas station, bucky's one specific company. The gas station infrastructure around the world around the United States is much bigger than that. So looking at one that is 18%, okay, great. But now add in all the gas stations that don't have it. You mean the three across the street from buckies that are your surprise, they're still in business that don't have any? Like I just said, though, one day the petroleum industry is going to wake up and go, hey, our gas station model is obsolete because these electric cars can charge at every museum they park at, at every grocery store they park at, at every Walmart. Walmarts are popping up electric chargers like crazy. Even in the towns I go to, some of these Walmarts have electric chargers. I'm surprised that I go to these towns that have a population of 300 and I see three Teslas in the parking lot in the Rivian. Electric's making its way in and none of the gas stations have chargers. Walmarts have chargers. I've seen McDonald's with chargers. I mean, I assume some targets have chargers. Three or four of the hotels I stay at have chargers. I stand by and very few people seem to say this or very few people that I read or listen to seem to say this. Gasoline stations are obsolete. They will go away. Oh, I agree with that wholeheartedly. And I really wish the petroleum companies would figure that out because if they did, their lobbying money would be to let's develop other technologies. Let's work on synthetic fuel because they're going to need our infrastructure for that. Right now we don't need the gasoline infrastructure. I'm quiet. I'll go off. I'll stop with my

46:43 Derek rant. But I agree with John. I mean, and that's if we were to be able to look at different options in technology, hydrogen, synthetic fuels, you know, anything else, you're right. I mean, a tank is a tank, right? A tank in the ground is a tank in the ground, whether it's holding gasoline, synthetic gasoline. You mean leaching gasoline into the… leaching gasoline into the mother earth soil. Anyway, you know, and you're right. I mean, currently they're quickly becoming obsolete. But if they would find ways, you know, and yeah, you might have to dig up the old gas tank and put in a carbon fiber, you know, strong hydrogen tank that's down there underground. Luckily not having to withhold 6,000 pounds per square inch of pressure. It would be opportunity to continue moving forward in the industry. But like you say, they just don't. They're just they're stuck in one way. It's limiting where we're going in the

47:53 John future. We've reached a consensus. Yes, we have. All right, good. I finally beat it in. I think we actually had a whole bunch of examples to cite in that, but it gets hard to do on an audio podcast. But there are alternative technologies that would be viable to at least explore. My whole point in this thing is the government won't let us because all the government money drives everything. Government incentives or however you want to look at it. And it's all forcing us to go to electric and the legislation's that way. And it's not by 2035, you need to be running on a 80% of your fleet needs to be clean fuel. A lot of these laws are saying by 2035, you have to have 60% of your fleet electric or 100% of your feet electric. It's not giving you the, I guess it's giving you the option of how you want to achieve the electricity, whether or not you're sitting there on an old bicycle like on Gilligan's Island charging the batteries the way they did their radio or whether it's solar or whether you're plugging into the grid so that an electric plant, a nuclear plant or a coal plant or wherever is producing your electricity. Boy, we could really get into that one too, but electricity podcast. The consensus of what I want to say out of this episode is let us do what we want, free up a little bit of money for something else, aid in the research. If somebody comes and proves a semi-viable concept, the money shouldn't be you get, you know, so many tax credits for doing this electric. You get so many, you know, we'll give you a million dollars for this electric project because all the money's in this electricity incentive packages. It needs to be in it really alternative propulsion methods. I like that. That's alternative propulsion. It doesn't need to be alternative fuels or whatever. It's propulsion methods and it should all be in a pile for that. Maybe the criteria to get some of that money is a little bit harder and maybe,

50:13 Derek you know, Elon Musk will cry a little bit, but maybe Bezos will love it. But interestingly, John, like, and I'm going to bring the history back into this because that's who I am. We did that at one time in the 1960s. There was some money set aside by the federal government for the auto industry to start looking into different propulsion technologies. And that's how we wound up with the Chrysler turbine concept that came out. You have to remember there's, I wish I could remember the name of the book right now. There's a great book on the history of the Chrysler turbine project. That turbine engine could run on almost anything that would burn. They were in a town in Mexico and ran it on Mexican tequila because the mayor wanted to see if it would work. And it worked because a turbine engine just can burn at such a high temperature and can burn so many fuels. If I recall correctly, they also ran it on Chanel number five while they were in France at one point, the perfume Chanel number five. But it was a moment in time, like what we're talking about, where innovation in the industry was supported and encouraged. And granted, there were issues with the turbine. I'm not saying the turbine engine is the solution to all our problems today. You know, there were precious metals in it that were extremely expensive. One of the biggest factors was most people complained about the lag because of course a turbine engine to get spooled up has some lag. And people didn't like driving around in a car that ran at 20,000, 30,000 RPM versus 3,000 RPM. They thought something was going to blow up and take everybody within a mile out. It was about innovation and figuring out something different. So here in the 1960s, we have a turbine engine that can burn on alternative

52:20 John fuel sources. Again, we're not allowing innovation to push forward. We got to a point where it was like, well, it works, but it's expensive and forget it. Funny thing about the turbine car is to me, it might be slightly viable in today's world. I think people would be more comfortable with the 20,000 RPM and the noises and things like that. Still some inherent safety risks, et cetera, out there for it. But as we get into and recent press releases and that have shown flying cars might actually come into existence within the next few years, it might be a very adaptable motor to go into a vehicle that would become a flying car. I mean, a turbine could be your propulsion in the air, but it also could be a slight generator as your electricity levels drop while on the ground. You don't even necessarily have to be powered by the turbine. It's a technology that could be looked at, but nobody's ever going to look at it because there's no money to let them look at it. Everybody's got to look at it. Pile A, where I've got to spend all of my money, or am I going to look at technology B, where the government will give me $10 million to help? Even if it's a $300 billion project, A or B, I get 10 million from the government for doing B. I'm going to do B because it's only going to cost me 290 billion. It's…

53:56 Derek …not exactly that math. We'll just go 290 million and 300 million. It's just put the money in a big pile and let the viable technologies have it. Now, I guess the scary thing is who gets to decide what qualifies. Okay, one last thing to say. Obscure movie reference. Maybe not obscure because they made a remake of it. We need to allow the research and understanding of flubber.

54:35 John That's all I'm going to say. It was a good technology. It powered a flying car. Yes, it did. It made funny noises too. Now, that's a noise that would be cool. You know, everybody thinks it's neat that you have the Jetson sound on some electric cars now. How about the flubber sound? The flubber sound. That'd be awesome. Elon, you can have the idea free. What? Come on. That could make him millions. We need to cash in on this. Okay, Elon, we would like a percentage. Rivian, you can have it for free. We just need an interview. I hear you give tours of the factory. And a press vehicle. We want to start driving press vehicles and give reviews. Yes, we would be able to utilize press vehicles in a totally different fashion than they do in California. They all drive them on the same road in the same traffic. Press vehicles in Kentucky and Alabama and Tennessee, totally, totally different. Plus, I travel, you know, 2000, 3000 miles a month. Lots of people will see the vehicle. And Derek goes to a place that has a lot of car enthusiasts. A lot of great exposure. It's not like, I want to say Matt Farah, but that's not who I'm thinking of. That one dude, the motor grader, Matt D'Andrea, another Matt. He only drives to Corolla Studio and home and Corolla Studio and home in his garage. We're going to take it places that people see it. No offense, Matt or Matt. I think we're going to wrap it up there. Maybe we said something that was important. I feel it is. I think we did come up with some really impactful statements in this episode. The federal government fund for the development of propulsion technologies for passenger vehicles. Wait, I didn't have a pen. I want to know the acronym for that. Maybe the acronym will be in the show notes. All right, that works. With that, I'm going to figure out how to push end recording. Again, nodrivinggloves.com for all the information, our little shop, the back episodes. We're glad to be back. We'll be back

57:07 announcer with you in another week. Later all. See you later. This show was a part of the No Driving Gloves Network produced and edited by John Viviani, a Magic City podcast with voice work by Gary Conger. So until the next exit.